Terror Frenzy

[Azrael]

Tobias ist der Meinung, daß Terror Frenzy [SUP] gebannt werden sollte.

Terror Frenzy [Sabbat:R, SW:R, FN:PR, CE:PN]
Cardtype: Combat

Cost: 1 blood

Discipline: Animalism

<Frenzy.>
[ani] Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, the opposing minion cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to close range, cannot use presses to continue combat and cannot use equipment.
[ANI] Only usable before range is determined. Opposing vampire burns an additional blood when playing combat cards this combat. A vampire may play only 1 Terror Frenzy at superior each combat.

Ich meine, das es nicht nötig ist, da es genug Gegenmaßnahmen dagegen gibt und man nur Vorteile daraus zieht wenn man Acting Minion ist.

Ich möchte gerne eure Meinung dazu hören!

Hier ist der Link zum vorangegangenen Gespräch... Klick mich

[the scavenger]

Tobias ist der Meinung, daß Terror Frenzy [SUP] gebannt werden sollte.

Terror Frenzy [Sabbat:R, SW:R, FN:PR, CE:PN]
Cardtype: Combat

Cost: 1 blood

Discipline: Animalism

<Frenzy.>
[ani] Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, the opposing minion cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to close range, cannot use presses to continue combat and cannot use equipment.
[ANI] Only usable before range is determined. Opposing vampire burns an additional blood when playing combat cards this combat. A vampire may play only 1 Terror Frenzy at superior each combat.

Ich meine, das es nicht nötig ist, da es genug Gegenmaßnahmen dagegen gibt und man nur Vorteile daraus zieht wenn man Acting Minion ist.

Ich möchte gerne eure Meinung dazu hören!

Hier ist der Link zum vorangegangenen Gespräch... Klick mich

Meine Meinung steht unter dem Klick. Kurz gesagt: Ich bin dagegen, die Karte zu bannen, behalte mir aber eine Revision in Bezug auf 6-Caps vor.

sk.

[Tobias]

Ich meine, das es nicht nötig ist, da es genug Gegenmaßnahmen dagegen gibt und man nur Vorteile daraus zieht wenn man Acting Minion ist.

Ich möchte gerne eure Meinung dazu hören!

Hier ist der Link zum vorangegangenen Gespräch... Klick mich

Can you show me examples of 'genug Gegenmaßnahmen'?

S:CE/Psyche! seems the only one to me. And please take into account that terror frenzy is almost always combined with drawing out the beast as well (which will make you loose in X turns, where X=capacity if you do nothing). So damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Tobias]

And to reply to scavenger (since the other thread is locked) - I haven't played any 5-cap BA - so maybe that's why my opinion is different. Still, ANI/pro brings us Drawing/Terror/Marble, which is ONLY beatable by S:CE/Psyche! (or an interesting combo of theft/blood to water, but against that there's more defense.)

I agree that banning the strongest card can just lead to another card being strongest, and I don't mind 'strong' cards per see (see also the newsgroup, where I argue that PTO and dominate aren't bad - just boring, sometimes).

TF, however, penalizes the opponent for playing every one of his 7 cards - which basically destroys the essence of the fun for the opponent.

Ironically, maybe this really IS only a problem outside the 5-cap range.

[the scavenger]

And to reply to scavenger (since the other thread is locked) - I haven't played any 5-cap BA - so maybe that's why my opinion is different. Still, ANI/pro brings us Drawing/Terror/Marble, which is ONLY beatable by S:CE/Psyche! (or an interesting combo of theft/blood to water, but against that there's more defense.)

There are more ways to beat Drawing/Terror/Marble:

Prevent the hand damage and disarm them
Poke them to torpor
Cancel the FoM with Spape Mastery, Blur for 6 ;-)

sk.

[Azrael]

Damage Prevention -> Handstrike (or Add. Strikes) -> Disarm
S:CE -> Psyche!
Cocealed Weapon -> Magnum (or another Weapon) -> Taste of Vitae
Inner Essence
Superior Mettle [Sup]
Horrock
Steal Blood
Mayaparisatya
Torn Signpost -> Concealed Wooden Stake
...

[Tobias]

And to reply to scavenger (since the other thread is locked) - I haven't played any 5-cap BA - so maybe that's why my opinion is different. Still, ANI/pro brings us Drawing/Terror/Marble, which is ONLY beatable by S:CE/Psyche! (or an interesting combo of theft/blood to water, but against that there's more defense.)

There are more ways to beat Drawing/Terror/Marble:

Prevent the hand damage and disarm them
Poke them to torpor
Cancel the FoM with Spape Mastery, Blur for 6

sk.

Re:

1. Fortitude (chimerstry or horrid form) will also prevent nicely
2. Se: 1. Or skin of night. Or dodge for both
3. That one's nice. Thought of it too.

If you're thinking: 'well, of course, Tobias can give counterexamples, but he's not going to be able to have every defense card he needs' - of course, you're right. But there's plenty of space to pack defense, because with TF/DotB and some prevent, you only have to wait for the other player to fall over...

[Tobias]

Damage Prevention -> Handstrike (or Add. Strikes) -> Disarm
S:CE -> Psyche!
Cocealed Weapon -> Magnum (or another Weapon) -> Taste of Vitae
Inner Essence
Superior Mettle [Sup]
Horrock
Steal Blood
Mayaparisatya
...

Re:

1. Add strikes won't work (FoM), but prevent-disarm works, if your opponent doesn't prevent as well - and he very well might, as I mention in my previous post.
2. S:CE->Psyche! will beat pre-range, but if you're fighting non pre-range decks with S:CE->Psyche! (Or Jalal), you're just trowing away cards to reboot.
3. Concealed Magnum will cost you 2+1+2=5 blood. You'll only be able to taste 1 back from every round (FoM), and the taste card will cost you a blood. DotB damage kills you.
4. Inner essence give you 1 (or 2, effectively, when you play another card), but will cost you 1 (to play it, or 2 when you play the other card). Net gain - 0 (or 1, because you get to play the second card without the TF penalty)
5. Superior mettle Sup won't stop the DotB damage that's also likely to come. Even if there's no DotB, TF will make the SM cost 2, and 1 more each turn to prevent whatever else is coming in strikes
6. Horrock is just one guy - and his reduce cost by 1 for protean doesn't counter the burns an extra blood clause from TF.
7. Steal blood works, but even a SUP Theft will only gain you 1, netto. Which you will likely loose to the DotB that same turn. Meanwhile, your enemy is also striking. Hope you have some evil combination of weather control/blood to water handy (which I can prove doesn´t always work).
8. Mayaparisatya. If the TF player also has DotB, range won´t be long. Dodge. Skin of night.

[the scavenger]

If you're thinking: 'well, of course, Tobias can give counterexamples, but he's not going to be able to have every defense card he needs' - of course, you're right. But there's plenty of space to pack defense, because with TF/DotB and some prevent, you only have to wait for the other player to fall over...

Well, you'll need Carrion Crows (and/or Taste of Vitae) as well, otherwise you die to two Theft of Vitaes/Tongue of the Serpent (5 caps again - he effectively looses one every turn after the first where he looses 2 - pay 1, get 2, get hit for 2 with DotB/Hand Strike; but you loose 2 every turn and paid one for TF. Third turn you're empty, he's got two and punches you to torpor).

So that's four cards already. I usually add Skin of Night against aggravated (better than Prevention IMHO because of Burst of Sunlight, Blood of Acid or additionals with Bone Spur), Shape Mastery against Horrid Forms/Flesh of Marble, and Taste. Of course I won every time with it, but this one is open to Disarm tactics.

Dodges and Prevention are so-so in 5-caps: You've only inferior Fortitude and disciplineless Dodge (or Form of Mist) to toy with. Dodge dies to Grapple anyway, plus it, Skin of Steel and pals don't do anything against environmental aggravated and additionals.

sk.

[the scavenger]

3. Concealed Magnum will cost you 2+1+2=5 blood. You'll only be able to taste 1 back from every round (FoM), and the taste card will cost you a blood. DotB damage kills you.

Not to mention that you can't use the gun when DotB is in play...

sk.

[Azrael]

2. Yes, you reboot the Combat to play your own Cards. You have after the reboot 5 Cards left, the Opposing Player plays at most Time TF/DotB/FoM/Carrion Crows, so he had only 3 Cards left...

3. Concealed Magnum costs under TF 4 Blood.
Concealed = 1 Blood
TF = 1 Blood
Magnum = 2 Blood
Cause TF says "burns an additional blood when playing combat cards"
Magnum is an Equipment Card...

5. But you can prevent the first damage from strikes each Round by burning 1 Blood, you must not play other Cards. Thats what i mean...

7. It could work

I think TF is not the Killer Card. In Combo with DotB it´s a killing Strategy that works.
I play BA to try out new Combo´s with Vampires and Cards that no one else would play, just for fun. I don´t need to win every Battle, but it´s good feeling when it happens...
For Example: I try to win with Agaitas, he´s not a Killermachine but he can win...

[Tobias]

2. Yes, you reboot the Combat to play your own Cards. You have after the reboot 5 Cards left, the Opposing Player plays at most Time TF/DotB/FoM/Carrion Crows, so he had only 3 Cards left...

3. Concealed Magnum costs under TF 4 Blood.
Concealed = 1 Blood
TF = 1 Blood
Magnum = 2 Blood
Cause TF says "burns an additional blood when playing combat cards"
Magnum is an Equipment Card...

5. But you can prevent the first damage from strikes each Round by burning 1 Blood, you must not play other Cards. Thats what i mean...

7. It could work

I think TF is not the Killer Card. In Combo with DotB it´s a killing Strategy that works.
I play BA to try out new Combo´s with Vampires and Cards that no one else would play, just for fun. I don´t need to win every Battle, but it´s good feeling when it happens...
For Example: I try to win with Agaitas, he´s not a Killermachine but he can win...

2. Well, I already said I thought S:CE/Psyche! would work against this one deck. However, how does it do in general?

3. Ah right, the equipment costs 1 more, but doesn't cost to TF. Good point.

5. Not good enough, I think.

7. It could, sure.

In general, TF/DotB is only stopped by a very very small section of decks, whereas other combat decks have to deal with many more possible opponents.

Hell, maybe TF/DotB is the BA equivalent of what SB (or PTO) is to normal Vtes games...

Damn, now I REALLY want to play my 7-cap decks - cause they are built to deal with this kinda crap... (Even though I am keeping TF banned for my next live tournament)

[Azrael]

Hell, maybe TF/DotB is the BA equivalent of what SB (or PTO) is to normal Vtes games...

Thats Right!

Damn, now I REALLY want to play my 7-cap decks - cause they are built to deal with this kinda crap...

First I must check all 7-Cap Vamires. They must be confirm to the BA Rules and then we can update to 7-Caps.

[the scavenger]

2. Well, I already said I thought S:CE/Psyche! would work against this one deck. However, how does it do in general?

I had good experiences with Abd al-Rashid in the 5-cap scenario. Disease is the main weapon, dies to additonals and massive damaging non-hand strikes (weapons etc.). But it's pretty versatile and actually stronger if you're reacting, since you can see their strike and choose whether to dodge.

The point is that you don't have to S:CE/Psyche, and only the Psyche is a dead card in that scenario. You must restart against massive pre-range stuff, but it handles most hand strike based decks very well and can deliver massive damage at close range (Thin Blood plus Vascular Explosion is -5 blood, and the 3 damage are unpreventable).

sk.

[Tobias]

Hell, maybe TF/DotB is the BA equivalent of what SB (or PTO) is to normal Vtes games...

Thats Right!

Damn, now I REALLY want to play my 7-cap decks - cause they are built to deal with this kinda crap...

First I must check all 7-Cap Vamires. They must be confirm to the BA Rules and then we can update to 7-Caps.

Ah, but I won't play them here (at first) - 7caps is the cap for the next 'live' BA in NL.